澳门跑狗论坛 Assistant Editor Stephen Sawchuk sat down last week in New York City with Melinda Gates, the co-chair and a trustee of the foundation that bears her and her husband鈥檚 names, to discuss its investments in teacher quality and other matters related to its work in the K-12 sphere.
Ms. Gates was in New York to visit New Visions Charter High School for the Humanities II, in the Bronx, and to talk with local teachers about professional development and implementation of the Common Core State Standards.
Also on hand and answering some questions was Vicki Phillips, the director of college-ready education at the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation. The Seattle-based philanthropy is the nation鈥檚 largest foundation鈥攚ith some $38 billion in assets, according to its website鈥攁nd has put hundreds of millions of dollars into projects and supports to reshape the teaching profession. (The Gates Foundation also provides support for coverage of business and K-12 innovation in 澳门跑狗论坛.)
Below, edited for length and clarity, are excerpts from the Oct. 9 interview. Among other issues, Ms. Gates addressed criticism of the foundation鈥檚 work, how its support for new teacher-evaluation systems has played out on the ground, and the foundation鈥檚 possible next steps in education philanthropy.
澳门跑狗论坛: The ballpark figure we came up with for the amount you鈥檝e spent on the intensive partnerships, the Measures of Effective Teaching research, , and 鈥渢eacher voice鈥� groups is about $600 million. It鈥檚 a lot of money, and in our corner of the universe, it has generated concern about one foundation doing too much to shape education policy. How would you respond to that charge?
Gates: First of all, investing in teachers is just the right thing to do. If we鈥檙e going to support teachers in the classroom so they can teach students in an effective way, we鈥檝e got to spend money on that. We鈥檝e got to update a lot of things that are going on. We鈥檝e got to figure out how to support world-class professional development.
So while the grants may look large when you add all of them up, ... they鈥檙e actually not that large in some sense. The way I like to think about our education spending is to say, what [does] the state of California spend on education every year? We could take the entire bolus, every dollar that鈥檚 in the foundation today, and spend it out in the state of California in two years and be out of business.
You have to take the money we have and pinpoint it in certain ways to try new things, and show ways of doing new things, and then hope those practices get spread. So that鈥檚 the point of those investments. But to me, they鈥檙e small when you think about the kinds of things we鈥檙e trying to do.
澳门跑狗论坛: Your husband has written a few op-eds with some of the ways states and districts are carrying out teacher evaluation鈥�, for instance. With that in mind, and with the benefit of hindsight, is there anything you鈥檇 go back and do differently in your teacher-quality grantmaking?
Gates: I鈥檓 not sure it would be done differently, [but] there are sequencing [concerns].
When you鈥檙e trying to do new work in a space, you sequence things. As soon as the [Measures of Effective Teaching] data would come out, people were implementing it really fast. I think when we come out with new research and new data, we can鈥檛 necessarily control how it spreads, nor should we. So I think what鈥檚 happening was the implementation sometimes was going too fast. People were actually implementing sometimes ahead of the data.
It would have been nice and neat and tidy if we could have said, 鈥淲ait until the very last day when it comes out, and this is the way to go.鈥� But I think some states went a little fast.
But I鈥檓 also seeing fine-tuning happening in states and listening happening. The whole goal is to have a robust, effective teacher-evaluation system to make teachers better, and I鈥檓 still hopeful that鈥檚 going to happen from what we鈥檙e seeing across the country.
澳门跑狗论坛: What comes next? What teacher-quality investments might you consider making in the future?
Gates: We don鈥檛 usually talk ahead about what I think we鈥檙e going to do, but I鈥檒l say this: Some of the things Vicki [Phillips] and I heard in the last 48 hours ... about the difference good-quality [professional development] makes, and how unbelievably time-constrained teachers are, ... I think we鈥檒l probably go deeper in that.
We鈥檙e learning some very interesting things already, and my sense is we鈥檒l probably have to spread it to even more places and get more feedback before we鈥檙e ready to say, 鈥淭his is the exact way to do professional development; these five things work.鈥�
澳门跑狗论坛: You visited a school in the Bronx and spoke to teachers today. What were the top two things you heard from teachers about the work you鈥檙e doing?
Gates: I just met with a group of teachers who are using social media in incredible ways. ... One of the teachers said, 鈥淎ll I had to do is write and say I鈥檓 teaching a lesson on fractions, and I get five great responses back.鈥� So [it鈥檚 insightful] to hear teachers using social media in deep ways that can really help them, not this scattered way of having to try to find things and not knowing whether they鈥檙e really good.
The other thing I heard is a lot about their own continuous learning, and one of the things about the common core is that it鈥檚 forcing them to go back to learning themselves. ... They鈥檙e using the [Literacy Design Collaborative] materials and [Mathematics Design Collaborative] to help them teach the common core. [The two networks are funded by the Gates Foundation.] They鈥檙e saying we should be continuous learners, like our students, ... and there鈥檚 a lot of excitement around that. I hadn鈥檛 really thought about how invigorated they would be by those new tools.
They鈥檙e not saying it鈥檚 easy. They鈥檙e saying, 鈥淚t鈥檚 hard work, and I have to have time to do it, and I need to learn from another teacher who鈥檚 doing it.鈥� But they鈥檙e saying it makes them excited about their craft, and it鈥檚 elevating their craft, and it鈥檚 going to help them be better teachers because of it.
澳门跑狗论坛: The Gates Foundation provided support to the groups who helped write the Common Core State Standards. What does the foundation make about the political battles over common core, some of which have targeted the foundation鈥檚 involvement?
Gates: I think we should listen to the teachers more. We had a survey from the [National Education Association], one from the [American Federation of Teachers], and one from Scholastic with 20,000 teachers, and the majority of teachers, 75 percent of teachers, . I think that鈥檚 who we need to listen to. Somehow we鈥檝e got to elevate their voices to the national discourse about this, because they鈥檙e the ones who are there in the classroom.
They鈥檙e saying, realistically, it鈥檚 not easy to implement. Teachers whose districts are implementing well have a lot of comfort with it. If they don鈥檛 think their district is implementing well, they鈥檙e more concerned.
We鈥檝e got to put that reality into the national discourse, and we鈥檙e just not doing that today. To me, that doesn鈥檛 make any sense.
澳门跑狗论坛: Many teachers are concerned about the fact that new [common-core-aligned] tests are going to come online, new tests that may be incorporated into their evaluations. What鈥檚 your thought on the transition time to the new standards, or as some have suggested, for using the test results for accountability?
Gates: There are two questions: Do you test against the common-core standards to know whether your students got the gains and are on track to move on to the next level? That has to be done, and again it鈥檚 not going to be necessarily pretty when the results come out. We鈥檝e seen that in some states, because the kids are scoring lower, but that needs to be done and, again, there鈥檚 going to be some angst when that鈥檚 being done.
Separately, there鈥檚 the evaluation piece. Do I think we should pause on evaluation? No. I think we need to keep going on evaluation, but we鈥檝e got to get the evaluation piece done right. I think where you鈥檙e seeing the most concerns are the states where teachers feel, rightfully so, that the test is too much a part of evaluation鈥攖hey鈥檙e not taking the multiple measures [into account]. So I think those states need to look and say, 鈥淗ey, do we need to give some flexibility to put multiple measures into our evaluation systems, like other great states are doing on this?鈥�
I think we will overcome some of this angst, though, after things get rolled out and are being implemented well. It鈥檚 difficult in some places, the timing and sequencing of common core and evaluation, but we鈥檙e definitely seeing districts where it鈥檚 going well.
澳门跑狗论坛: What have you learned about the four districts, and the charter school network, funded through your Intensive Partnerships for Effective Teaching [a $290 million grant program to redesign teacher hiring, evaluation, and pay structures]? Do you have any results that seem promising?
Vicki Phillips: I think we鈥檝e learned a lot from those sites. Are we yet at the point in time where we might see whether that鈥檚 going to materialize into student gains? I think we鈥檙e on the cusp of that. But have we learned a lot about how you redesign a system around teachers that focuses on improvement, uses multiple measures, all the things Melinda just talked about? I personally don鈥檛 think [the Measures of Effective Teaching research] would have been nearly as effective in the country if we hadn鈥檛 paired it with the wisdom of practice in the field.
Gates: Absolutely.
Phillips: Those places have iterated and done a great job of it in some extraordinary circumstances. Look at what Memphis and Shelby County [Tenn.] have been able to do, hold the same things steady in the face of a big merger and a lot of issues. There鈥檚 a lot of learning to be unpacked there.
澳门跑狗论坛: One thing a lot of readers want to know is why you chose to focus so specifically on teacher quality. Why not pour it into early-childhood education, or do pilots around that?
Gates: Good research shows that the very best thing you can do for students is having an effective teacher in the front of a classroom. That is the most important thing in terms of getting student gains and getting great student learning. If you don鈥檛 have an effective teacher, the outcomes are just completely different. ...
Parents inherently know [this]. As a parent, I clamor to get my kid if I can with that best teacher. I can remember, and you can remember, who your best teacher is.
It is a human resource issue. It鈥檚 the place where you鈥檝e got to figure out what can be done to make sure every student has an effective teacher in front of the classroom. Otherwise, we鈥檙e not going to make progress as a nation.
澳门跑狗论坛: Your work with teachers predates the Obama administration鈥檚 Race to the Top program, but there was a lot of compatibility between the aims of that federal initiative and your grants. Now the Obama administration is facing tough political times, and the stimulus money is gone. Does that affect the foundation鈥檚 ability to have an impact?
Gates: What got started with Race to the Top and allowed progress to happen with the school districts [is] some rolling momentum, and so that will continue on. ... I think the momentum will keep rolling in the states, and I think we鈥檙e just on the cusp of a lot of great things happening.
Phillips: The great thing about Bill and Melinda is that they鈥檙e in this for the long haul, and they know how challenging the work is. So what happens is we work across administrations because we know we want to be in this for the long run, and you use the synergy and the acceleration where you can get it.
Race to the Top was a great accelerant, and that momentum is going to continue. Now, it鈥檚 about how do you build the support system to make that feedback fall on great fertile ground in terms of their professional development.
Gates: The foundation will always be in the education space, always, in the U.S.
Philips: Our strategy is not going to significantly change at any time in the near future.
Gates: It doesn鈥檛 matter which administration comes in.
澳门跑狗论坛: Of everything you鈥檝e done relating to teacher quality, what鈥檚 the most surprising or enlightening thing you鈥檝e learned?
Gates: I think it comes down to the students. What strikes me, what inspires me is the group of students I was with yesterday in the South Bronx. You know, a few years ago, I鈥檇 have people come up to me and kind of ask me on the side, 鈥淵ou don鈥檛 really think we can teach all kids to be ready to go to college?鈥� Yeah, I think we should get all kids to go to college!
When I sat with these students yesterday, they talked about their circumstances at home: 鈥淚鈥檓 the first of my family to go to school, my brother told me about this school,鈥� or how they got to where they are. And when I actually sat in the classroom with those kids and heard them debating about the [industrial] revolution that happened in England back in the 1800s, and they鈥檙e debating, and critiquing, and taking passages apart, you want to say to everybody, 鈥淵eah, all kids can learn. These kids can learn just like anybody else can.鈥欌��
When you see great teaching in the classroom, it鈥檚 what鈥檚 [engaging] those students. It鈥檚 motivating them and allowing them to reach their potential.
That鈥檚 not really a surprise to me because we鈥檝e been at this work more than a decade, but it keeps inspiring me, and it reminds me to poke back at those people who say, 鈥淎re we really going to teach all kids?鈥� Yeah, we are really going to teach all kids, and it鈥檚 great when you see it happening because of great teaching.
